07.08d: Matters of State

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Wyvern
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Wyvern »

Can we please stop OOC pretending that the ideal of feudalism is "a turd" designed only to oppress those not in power? You seem to be judging the system based solely on its worst historical implementations, which is about as fair as judging the ideal of a republic by north korea or haiti, or judging the ideal of communism by, well, any country that's claimed to implement it. By those standards, there are no governmental systems that aren't "turds" designed solely to oppress those not in power.

Consider, for example, the code of chivalry. That's a part of feudalism, and includes such concepts as "respect & defend those weaker than yourself", and "be generous". Yeah, really a great tool of oppression, isn't it? So, in your example of a king who doesn't care how his tax monies are raised... that's a king who's failed to live up to the ideals of feudalism.

Plus, this is a game, not real life. As Josh points out, in real life, we don't have leaders that are immortal, and supernaturally good at organizing people. That really skews the balance of what government systems are worth using; in the real world, I wouldn't advocate a feudal government, or a benevolent dictatorship, simply due to issues of transfer of power & finding competent leaders; in Amber, however, those issues are largely moot.

As for your "logic problems" - your laws are no better there. Yes, implementing a law that makes killing red headed children mandatory would, under your system, require a bit more effort from an amberite; they'd need to blackmail or mind control or replace with doppelgangers quite a number of people - say, Sadie, plus enough to have a majority in either your legislature or your supreme court. But there's nothing that would inherently prevent such a law from existing, and once created, it would be equally difficult to remove.

And the challenge laws? That's simply recognizing reality - consider the above case again. If you (and your allies) can't best one amberite trying to change Rebma, then Rebma is going to be changed. Which is why declaring yourself an independent state is such a dangerously bad idea - at least on paper, no other amberites are now in any way responsible for what happens to Rebma - you've just told your potential allies you're going home to play by yourself and they should shut up and stay out.
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Sadie
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Sadie »

That makes the laws all the more necessary. It's a contract between the rulers and the people that, while the godlike being can of course break demonstrates first that they are willing to at least attempt to live up to something, and gives the people something they can go up to the other godlike beings and say "hey look what they aren't living up to" and gives the other godlike beings a good reason to bring your ass back in line. It's a codified promise. The more powerful we are the more terrifying and beings of nightmares we are. Dworkin can practically on a whim destroy Rebma, and Sadie may not be able to stop him, but by the time she's done, if she's done her job right, the people will know she will be right there with them when he does and will fight tooth and nail to prevent it. She may not be able to promise he won't, but she can promise she would do her best to stop it and prevent it. Without laws, assurances, promises and clear goals the people are left with nothing but fear and uncertainty as a form of rule.

It does change perspective, it makes it worse and all the more terrifying for the people. Part of being responsible with power is making it very clear what you intend to do with that power, what your motivations are, and where you stand in your position of the treatment of those you hold power over. Without that all that's left is fear and uncertainty. In the end is it just a piece of paper with what might be lies and false promises? Yes, but until that piece of paper proves to be a lie, and the promises false, at least the people have SOMETHING to go on and give them comfort and hope. At least they have some feeling of knowing something, and some real indication of where they stand and how the ruler at least claims to intend to treat them.

Just because a person of unknown character who has godly cosmic power has not done something yet but might as there's no indication they won't other than an uncertain precedent set forth of nothing bad yet, with no indication what might set them off, is no comfort to anybody and is certainly far from inspiring or as Alys seems to think something that increases morale.

*was in response to Josh
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Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law..."
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Sadie
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Sadie »

Code of chivalry is not "part of feudalism" it's an addition after the fact. Feudalism was not created with the code of chivalry nor is it an innate part of feudalism. In fact it has nothing to do with the initial or pure feudal law at all. Also ignoring the history of it, is ignoring who designed it and with what purpose. Also the code of chivalry was one of those "passify" the people lies that in actuality went mostly ignored.
Sadie - "You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law..."
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Sadie
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Sadie »

As for telling potential allies that, no I really didn't unless they choose to take it that way. Which I assure you is not the case. Just because Rebma is sovereign does nothing to create an inability to ally. In fact there are many good reasons to ally with another sovereign state. That assumption is baseless and ridiculous. No Sovereign nation ever has been without allies. If Sadie was she'd never have taken the chance. I can name at least one amberite already she intends to and can build upon a strong alliance with. Your assumption is completely lacking in real world, and in game actuality. Nor is this a violent separation.
Sadie - "You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law..."
misfit
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by misfit »

Okay, clearly this isn't going to be resolved so I'm bowing out of the debate. There are definitely things I feel need to be said...in character and I will address them in character when the time is right. Everyone else is certainly free to contine this debate to their heart's content. If anything that will directly impact the game comes out of it please let the rest of us because I for one am going to stop reading this particular thread. ...and before anyone thinks about reading anything into that, please don't bother. I'm just making a choice for myself and it's not about anyone but myself.
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Sadie
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Sadie »

I can respect that.
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Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law..."
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Joshua
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Joshua »

Yeah, this has gone well beyond the scope of the game. If you want to have this discussion, that's fine... but this thread was intended for Sadie's declaration.
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Sadie
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Sadie »

Might want to make a new thread for that now Josh anyway as this one is a bit over cluttered with OOC stuff now.
Sadie - "You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law..."
Wyvern
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Re: 07.08d: Matters of State

Post by Wyvern »

Putting this here, since it really doesn't need to be cluttering up the new thread.

Talked to Sadie's player some off the forums - I think we've figured out how we were talking past each other and come to some level of agreement (basically, as near as I can tell, we were both right... but were talking about different things and hadn't quite figured that out.)

Also, I just want to say, had the declaration been handled this way initially - and its IC introduction matched the one linked to above - it would almost certainly not have triggered the IC rant Alys made here. Most notably, the bit about amberites having honorary citizenships neatly solves the first three points Alys brought up in that rant, the fourth point was never important in the first place, the fifth point is also largely irrelevant... and the sixth point... well, we'll likely get to that one IC again sometime.
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